The WNBA's star rookies are driving fresh interest and putting up startling numbers but there are still questions about their flaws. We take a closer look.
Actually, to get a more accurate feel for Clark’s assist/turnover performance (and since you saw fit to comment on the relative gaps between Clark and number 2 in each category), you should factor in the assists lost to blown layups.
I agree, if you’re going to say that assists to turnovers aren’t diametrically opposed, I think you have to also factor in that great passes aren’t always converted on. So a more accurate measurement would be comparing turnovers to passes that connected with teammates, whether they led to scoring or not
That is so true just the last game ( Dallas) there were 3 blown layups in the first half on her thread the needle passes and one that Smith inexplicably just passed up the wide open layup for a " hand grenade" 3pt to Fagbenle.
I don’t see how you can say things like “keep things civil” and then give an opinionated take like “Clark throws behind the back passes to keep herself entertained.” If you’ve watched the Fever as you claim, you can see that those ARE often the “Chelsea Gray” way, and that they have been converted on a higher rate as she and her teammates have developed chemistry. It’s not that she was throwing when there wasn’t space just for funsies, it was that there WAS space but her teammates didn’t anticipate them and now there is. You’re clearly biased, even if you claim not to be, which has been evident from your publication throughout Clark’s career, and is funny to me because she’s always been a stats leader on your page
You don’t know that. Make basketball arguments instead of leaps in what she is or isn’t doing in all of her time between games. It’s not easy to get rebounds and she’s getting contested offensive rebounds that lead to additional possessions for her team. This is when I find the analysis becomes less about their games, which I thought was the focus.
One thing about Caitlin’s behind the back passes and such are that they lead to the defense not having any clue what she’s about to do. Maybe that’s why a list of the NBA players leading in turnovers is almost a carbon copy of a list of the best NBA players of all time.
Well, you can’t do math. Only 1/3 of her offensive rebounds come from her own misses. She grabs a ton of defensive rebounds. Only about 10 to 15% of her total rebounds come from her own misses.
One thing not really mentioned here is that Clark, for all of the brilliant things she did in college, was also a bit of a turnover machine. Even she recognized that. This is the way she plays. She's just continued that style, which has largely worked. Of course she'd like to cut down the turnovers. But the Fever seem to be accepting of it to this point and they're firmly in the playoffs, which was goal #1 for this year.
That’s because turnovers are often directly correlated to the best passers. Look at the NBA turnover leaders. They’re not “taking good with the bad” the turnovers come as a byproduct of her insane passing. Compare her, for example, to Sabrina Ionescu. Sabrina has less turnovers, but she can’t even get the ball in to her big. I don’t know how much more evidence everyone needs that this hand wringing about turnovers is just silly, and honestly just seems like an attempt to undermine Clark because there’s not a ton to criticize in her game. And people feel like they need to find something because they said she wouldn’t be all that good
Reese is too busy accessorizing and developing her pod cast show to put in the work, Clark is truly all in on winning, trying to weed out what works in the WNBA and what doesn't, with many of her attempts just hitting her opponent's to stop the shot clock when she is pressed or double teamed . Great assessment though...
bottom line for AR, if it's so easy to get rebounds and pad your stats how come other people aren't right there with her. Oh and what are her defensive rebound stats?
Simple.. Reese is ALWAYS under the basket where others are out trying to be passed to therefore you can't be in 2 places at once, therfore Reeses rebound chances with her genetics of height is a higher percentage
Fair evaluation but skills are a chasm apart. Reese is all effort I am aghast at her lack of any offensive skills. she is a demon on the boards. She does not quit. There is no discussion on ROY( it's laughable) but Reese is 100% effort
Checking for no particular reason: nobody at Her Hoop Stats has a ROTY vote, right?
I don’t get the point of this exercise. Sure people downplay Angel’s rebounds and rationalize Caitlin’s turnovers, but people also downplay Caitlin’s assists and rationalize Angel’s poor shooting. People on the internet are crazy
I would agree but they both play significant minutes on not great teams so the plus minus being better for Angel i really wish I could understand why that’s the case. I tend to not think it’s noise. I agree CC is ROTY, but why is she negative on a bad team and CC is positive on a bad team? Are Angels teammates just that much worse than her?
Her "selfishness entitlement" is what caused her reputation. The "me too" queen should speak less about herself and focus on her skills because they are very limited.
Young points commit turnovers. Sue Bird led the WNBA in turnovers in each of her first two seasons, people just didn't make as big of a deal out of it. Clark will get better at not throwing the ball into traffic.
AT also led the league in turnovers last year and finished first in MVP voting. It’s not just a young point thing, its a running the offense/usage rate thing
I agree. The turnovers with her concern me less than Angels missed shots because the turnovers is deduction making and reading the game. She’ll definitely get better at that being a young player. Angels missed shots at the rim seem to be a matter of her unorthodox style and coordination, it’s a lot tougher to turn that around, unless maybe she builds some type of different muscle memory
Bringing up turnovers when you see the type of passes Caitlin makes is asinine, imho. For example, Sabrina has less turnovers than her. But Sabrina also cannot make a basic post entry pass. Tell me which of the two you’d prefer running your offense.
I think Clark reminds me of a Harden type now. Great on the ball player and very heliocentric however how does she scale up when the players get better, does some her on-ball value decrease. I think Sabrina fits well on a good team because she plays so well off the ball. But in a vacuum I would undoubtedly take Clark.
Clark plays well off the ball too… If you watched Clark in USA basketball, you see that she plays just as well being a part of a good team as she does being a heliocentric player. I’m a Liberty fan so I’ve watched Sabrina for years, any day of the week on any sort of team I’d prefer Caitlin’s much more advanced skillset and high IQ. I don’t get why people think Caitlin can’t play off the ball - it’s just that she’s gonna have the ball because nobody else is as good with it. But if she was playing with two MVPs like Sabrina, she’d be even better than she is off the ball
I don’t think it’s insane. Turnovers do matter. Now not all turnovers are created equal and CC has a pretty high usage but she can’t just turn the ball over. I mean come on…
But as we saw in the playoffs, she can easily rein in the turnovers in high stakes situations. Her turnovers came from testing the bounds of what kind of passes she can get away with, not from haphazardly losing the ball.
A very civil vote for Clark here. You also need to understand that she has had a monument affect on both attendance and league revenue , far above the contribution of Reese.
I feel I'm being fair to the discussion by even having it but it is hard to stay neutral because Clark and Reese being mentioned in the same sentence is like Steph Curry and Steven Adams being compared. It's silly . Angel is a hustler straight up junkyard dog crazy hustler....but she is not in Clark's category.Not close.
Exactly. Interestingly, Reese's +/- is better than Clark's even though Indiana has a better +/- than Chicago. But bottom line, you are right and Reese, I think, is actually being underrated when being compared to Clark. Clark is already the best guard in the WNBA. She currently leads in point production (Pts + Ast*2) no one else is over 33.5 and her eFG% and Tru% are better than other high volume shooting guards like Arike, Sabrina, Plum and Copper, only Kelsey Mitchell has better shooting percentages and she benefits from Clark's passing and center of gravity.
Yeah the plus minus being positive on a negative team is what gives me pause a bit. Idk if it’s the extra possessions or something that we aren’t taking into account yet with her game. With that said I still have questions about how both of them scale up on a better team. Just because Caitlin seems to be more of a heliocentric player which you don’t see a ton of in that league now and Angel just her real only off ball value is that you have to put a body on her. Also Angel while she has some moments on ball with her defense she loses focus a lot offball (probably because she’s worried about chasing rebounds) and if you watch a team like the Lynx or Phee they are so locked in. I tend to sometimes look at things through an NBA lens a League I have more experience with and Angels archetype is not one you see on successful teams in that league but I suppose the W could be different.
Nice assessment of both players. Thank you.
Thank you for this analysis. I find it interesting and helpful in "listening" to all the talk.
Actually, to get a more accurate feel for Clark’s assist/turnover performance (and since you saw fit to comment on the relative gaps between Clark and number 2 in each category), you should factor in the assists lost to blown layups.
I agree, if you’re going to say that assists to turnovers aren’t diametrically opposed, I think you have to also factor in that great passes aren’t always converted on. So a more accurate measurement would be comparing turnovers to passes that connected with teammates, whether they led to scoring or not
That is so true just the last game ( Dallas) there were 3 blown layups in the first half on her thread the needle passes and one that Smith inexplicably just passed up the wide open layup for a " hand grenade" 3pt to Fagbenle.
Stahp
Stahp
I don’t see how you can say things like “keep things civil” and then give an opinionated take like “Clark throws behind the back passes to keep herself entertained.” If you’ve watched the Fever as you claim, you can see that those ARE often the “Chelsea Gray” way, and that they have been converted on a higher rate as she and her teammates have developed chemistry. It’s not that she was throwing when there wasn’t space just for funsies, it was that there WAS space but her teammates didn’t anticipate them and now there is. You’re clearly biased, even if you claim not to be, which has been evident from your publication throughout Clark’s career, and is funny to me because she’s always been a stats leader on your page
You don’t know that. Make basketball arguments instead of leaps in what she is or isn’t doing in all of her time between games. It’s not easy to get rebounds and she’s getting contested offensive rebounds that lead to additional possessions for her team. This is when I find the analysis becomes less about their games, which I thought was the focus.
The proverbial comparing apples to oranges
One thing about Caitlin’s behind the back passes and such are that they lead to the defense not having any clue what she’s about to do. Maybe that’s why a list of the NBA players leading in turnovers is almost a carbon copy of a list of the best NBA players of all time.
Well, you can’t do math. Only 1/3 of her offensive rebounds come from her own misses. She grabs a ton of defensive rebounds. Only about 10 to 15% of her total rebounds come from her own misses.
One thing not really mentioned here is that Clark, for all of the brilliant things she did in college, was also a bit of a turnover machine. Even she recognized that. This is the way she plays. She's just continued that style, which has largely worked. Of course she'd like to cut down the turnovers. But the Fever seem to be accepting of it to this point and they're firmly in the playoffs, which was goal #1 for this year.
That’s because turnovers are often directly correlated to the best passers. Look at the NBA turnover leaders. They’re not “taking good with the bad” the turnovers come as a byproduct of her insane passing. Compare her, for example, to Sabrina Ionescu. Sabrina has less turnovers, but she can’t even get the ball in to her big. I don’t know how much more evidence everyone needs that this hand wringing about turnovers is just silly, and honestly just seems like an attempt to undermine Clark because there’s not a ton to criticize in her game. And people feel like they need to find something because they said she wouldn’t be all that good
Reese is too busy accessorizing and developing her pod cast show to put in the work, Clark is truly all in on winning, trying to weed out what works in the WNBA and what doesn't, with many of her attempts just hitting her opponent's to stop the shot clock when she is pressed or double teamed . Great assessment though...
bottom line for AR, if it's so easy to get rebounds and pad your stats how come other people aren't right there with her. Oh and what are her defensive rebound stats?
Simple.. Reese is ALWAYS under the basket where others are out trying to be passed to therefore you can't be in 2 places at once, therfore Reeses rebound chances with her genetics of height is a higher percentage
Exactly. Extra possessions are extra possessions plain and simple.
Fair evaluation but skills are a chasm apart. Reese is all effort I am aghast at her lack of any offensive skills. she is a demon on the boards. She does not quit. There is no discussion on ROY( it's laughable) but Reese is 100% effort
Checking for no particular reason: nobody at Her Hoop Stats has a ROTY vote, right?
I don’t get the point of this exercise. Sure people downplay Angel’s rebounds and rationalize Caitlin’s turnovers, but people also downplay Caitlin’s assists and rationalize Angel’s poor shooting. People on the internet are crazy
Man some of you guys are the worst man. The absolute worst….
? Where did I say anything that was false?
I would agree but they both play significant minutes on not great teams so the plus minus being better for Angel i really wish I could understand why that’s the case. I tend to not think it’s noise. I agree CC is ROTY, but why is she negative on a bad team and CC is positive on a bad team? Are Angels teammates just that much worse than her?
Her "selfishness entitlement" is what caused her reputation. The "me too" queen should speak less about herself and focus on her skills because they are very limited.
Young points commit turnovers. Sue Bird led the WNBA in turnovers in each of her first two seasons, people just didn't make as big of a deal out of it. Clark will get better at not throwing the ball into traffic.
AT also led the league in turnovers last year and finished first in MVP voting. It’s not just a young point thing, its a running the offense/usage rate thing
Biggest things Clark could change are improved midrange stop whining on missed calls and hustle back and reduce a few of crazy passes
You misogynistic losers who know nothing about basketball are so exhausting
I agree. The turnovers with her concern me less than Angels missed shots because the turnovers is deduction making and reading the game. She’ll definitely get better at that being a young player. Angels missed shots at the rim seem to be a matter of her unorthodox style and coordination, it’s a lot tougher to turn that around, unless maybe she builds some type of different muscle memory
Bringing up turnovers when you see the type of passes Caitlin makes is asinine, imho. For example, Sabrina has less turnovers than her. But Sabrina also cannot make a basic post entry pass. Tell me which of the two you’d prefer running your offense.
I think Clark reminds me of a Harden type now. Great on the ball player and very heliocentric however how does she scale up when the players get better, does some her on-ball value decrease. I think Sabrina fits well on a good team because she plays so well off the ball. But in a vacuum I would undoubtedly take Clark.
Clark plays well off the ball too… If you watched Clark in USA basketball, you see that she plays just as well being a part of a good team as she does being a heliocentric player. I’m a Liberty fan so I’ve watched Sabrina for years, any day of the week on any sort of team I’d prefer Caitlin’s much more advanced skillset and high IQ. I don’t get why people think Caitlin can’t play off the ball - it’s just that she’s gonna have the ball because nobody else is as good with it. But if she was playing with two MVPs like Sabrina, she’d be even better than she is off the ball
I don’t think it’s insane. Turnovers do matter. Now not all turnovers are created equal and CC has a pretty high usage but she can’t just turn the ball over. I mean come on…
But as we saw in the playoffs, she can easily rein in the turnovers in high stakes situations. Her turnovers came from testing the bounds of what kind of passes she can get away with, not from haphazardly losing the ball.
A very civil vote for Clark here. You also need to understand that she has had a monument affect on both attendance and league revenue , far above the contribution of Reese.
I feel I'm being fair to the discussion by even having it but it is hard to stay neutral because Clark and Reese being mentioned in the same sentence is like Steph Curry and Steven Adams being compared. It's silly . Angel is a hustler straight up junkyard dog crazy hustler....but she is not in Clark's category.Not close.
Exactly. Interestingly, Reese's +/- is better than Clark's even though Indiana has a better +/- than Chicago. But bottom line, you are right and Reese, I think, is actually being underrated when being compared to Clark. Clark is already the best guard in the WNBA. She currently leads in point production (Pts + Ast*2) no one else is over 33.5 and her eFG% and Tru% are better than other high volume shooting guards like Arike, Sabrina, Plum and Copper, only Kelsey Mitchell has better shooting percentages and she benefits from Clark's passing and center of gravity.
Yeah the plus minus being positive on a negative team is what gives me pause a bit. Idk if it’s the extra possessions or something that we aren’t taking into account yet with her game. With that said I still have questions about how both of them scale up on a better team. Just because Caitlin seems to be more of a heliocentric player which you don’t see a ton of in that league now and Angel just her real only off ball value is that you have to put a body on her. Also Angel while she has some moments on ball with her defense she loses focus a lot offball (probably because she’s worried about chasing rebounds) and if you watch a team like the Lynx or Phee they are so locked in. I tend to sometimes look at things through an NBA lens a League I have more experience with and Angels archetype is not one you see on successful teams in that league but I suppose the W could be different.
I think it’s honestly just her coach would take her out in blowout losses, whereas Caitlin plays the whole 40 minutes of pretty much every game.